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Post by Mat's Mom on Jan 31, 2015 16:31:18 GMT -8
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Post by Not N. Miname on Feb 1, 2015 21:13:29 GMT -8
The article and the book/author it centers around make an excellent point that I did not have on a list I jotted down back in December (when the Senate report on torture was in the news) of reasons NOT to torture. The author, John Schafer's excellent point is basically that there's a better way (than torture). The 525 page unclassified version of the Senate report can be found at: www.intelligence.senate.gov/study2014/sscistudy1.pdf Some additional criticisms of the torture done in our names were published in a second report at: www.intelligence.senate.gov/study2014/sscistudy2.pdf The full classified report is about 6,000 pages long, but here's a link to an excerpted list of its findings: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Intelligence_Committee_report_on_CIA_torture#Findings And here's the list I began after hearing Dennis Kucinich question how it is that some people can seriously think torture would be OK as long as it produces actionable info. Input from others I heard on KPFK at the time added to this list and your input is welcome as well. I'm sure there are more items. Some reasons why torture is STILL NOT OK. - Performing torture increases the likelihood our own service people will be tortured.
- As a democracy with civilians directly responsible for the actions of their government, government sanctioned torture makes civilians much more likely to be tortured by opponents.
- Doing even just a little torture becomes a big recruitment tool for opponents.
- Opponents won't surrender as easily as they have in the past; when they knew they'd be well treated (e.g when General Washington and President Lincoln issued orders to treat prisoners well).
- Torture produces lots of (expensive) bad information.
- Torture is a tool that lets really really bad people within our own government obtain whatever "confessions" they might need to enable further crimes.
Torture hardens the victims (family & friends too). - Torture divides us (we the people) over the issue of torture.
- Torture hardens the victims (family & friends too).
- Torture creates more enemies.
- Torture generally escalates conflict.
- Torture reduces our own ability to recruit.
- Torture adds to the growing authoritarianism.
- Torture psychologically damages torturers' ethics and mental health.
- Torture is typically done by psychopaths for other psychopaths.
- Torture attracts psychopaths to "serve".
- "Accidental" deaths during torture are murder.
What else can be added to this list other than there are better ways than torture?
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anni
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Post by anni on Feb 2, 2015 10:47:50 GMT -8
These are all such good points. I admit #13 (Torture psychologically damages torturers' ethics and mental health.), rings most true and loud to me...as the best reason to never use torture.
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Brian
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Post by Brian on Feb 4, 2015 0:50:30 GMT -8
Thank you both for starting this thread -- and many others -- on the Montrose Peace Vigil message board lately. Mat's Mom has posted under the same name while Not N. Miname has lots of monikers. I respect their choice to post as guests, adding another layer of anonymity on the Internet, so I don't want to identify them too much. I assume that all of the message board and vigil regulars know who Not is just by reading his clear and original thinking on a range of concerns, all designed to inspire action.
I've been reading everything I can about U.S. torture since our program was revealed, but I've never seen a more concise compilation of why torture is always wrong than Not's list. Like he points out, being tortured hardens the victims and everybody they know -- if they weren't already anti-American, they have reasons to hate us now. I would add to Not's list: Most victims may never be able to recover psychologically from their torture. I heard that at a local National Religious Campaign Against Torture symposium in 2009, where I also learned that the torturers may suffer more than their victims, because they carry the guilt. Unless they're sociopaths.
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Post by Sharon W on Feb 4, 2015 10:10:23 GMT -8
I think the suicides of so many US military personnel emphasize how damaging it is to carry out our current policies. Unstaffed killer drones aren't anything to be proud of either.
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